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Going to do a big project in peyote
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stitchngirl message #1
Going to do a big project in peyote
November 24, 2011 at 8:24:19 PM
 
I'm going to do a big project in peyote.
18" wide x 20" high
Do you have any hints and tips on how to work with such a big project?
what thread to use?
How do you keep your tension with having the project 18" wide?
I'm excited and nervous - need hints and tips please

Kathy


 
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Stitchboard Admin message #2
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
November 25, 2011 at 1:24:00 AM
 
Kathy,

WOW, how EXCITING!  Smiley  That's HUGE!  Smiley

What kind of beads are you using?

My personal preference would be one of the fiber fishing lines, like PowerPro or Fireline.  I like them because they make for a really SOLID project.  The weight of it that you'd use would depend on the size of beads you're using...and then the other thing I'd strongly suggest is NOT to knot the thread if you can help it.  I've read that fishing line can actually cut ITSELF(!) when knotted.  Luckily, peyote is the kind of stitch that can be woven back repeatedly, so there's little chance of it coming undone, despite the lack of knots.  (I definitely wouldn't suggest it for a stitch like RAW, though, as I tried weaving that back and was sadly disappointed in how it just loosened after.)

If I'm going to be using Delicas, I like to use 10 lb test for a really good hold, but if there are going to be a lot of thread ends to weave in, I like to use 8 or even 6 pound test.  A thinner thread tends to leave more "room" in the beads for thread ends.

Tension...I've never worked on a piece that wide.  Might you be better off working it in smaller segments and joining it together after?  You could work it where the ends would simply "zip" together.

It sounds like such a FUN, EXCITING project!  Smiley

Melanie  (known to the cat as "Rowr" or "Rowr Rowr") =^.^=


Melanie  (cat slave and Official Feline Can Opener) =^.^=
~~~~~
I'm a beading, knitting and crochet addict.  If that means I'm admitting I have a problem, then I admit to nothing. Please refrain from helping me.


 
Member since:
Jul 14, 2011
Posts: 20
stitchngirl message #3
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 12, 2011 at 10:18:28 AM
 
Hi Melanie
Was out of town and just got back
I'm going to use the delica size 11 beads for this.
So do you think using the 6 lb fireline will hold the weight of the beads with the size of the project?
I'm waiting for the beads to arrive so i can start - just shy of 114,000 beads.
Starter strip never done that before? How do you detach your work from the starter strip each time?
Should i do about 10 to 20 rows for a starter strip?

once i actually get started to see how this will go - it will help - not sure how to manage 18" wide - i've only done
like 3" wide so this will be a learning exciting and scarey venture. LOL!

Kathy


 
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Stitchboard Admin message #4
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 12, 2011 at 2:41:25 PM
 
Kathy,

Whether or not the the Fireline will hold the beads will mainly depend on how much weight it will be holding.  If it's a wall hanging...ouch, I don't know that this is such a good idea...unless you have an additional way of supporting it, so the weight isn't entirely on the threads.  If it's going to go over something and lay flat, there's less cause for worry.  Smiley  I'm not an engineer, but my guess is that if it's going to be used as a wall hanging, the topmost threads will take virtually ALL of the weight, as they have not only the rows through which they're woven to support, but also the weight of ALL of the beads below, and that just doesn't sound too good for them!

That is a LOT of beads, and honestly, it sounds like SO MUCH FUN!  Smiley

Okay, a starter strip is easy.  The main reason I suggested it is that you don't have to worry about your colors for the first two rows, as you normally do with peyote.  You don't have to do 20 rows...3 rows would suffice.  I like to do maybe about 5 rows, just to add a little extra stability.  Just start the project as you would, except with a color of beads NOT from your project that will really stand out (to make it easier).

The key to a starter strip is to use a different thread to stitch it.  I never use the same thread for both.  Some people do "waste rows" for the first three rows, instead...they simply tear the first three rows out later.  I prefer a starter strip.  Once you've added at least three rows of your actual project to the starter strip, then stop and remove the starter strip.  That you do with the actual thread you used to start the project itself.  You'll basically "unzip" them, then weave your beginning thread in as usual (or knot it, but I don't do that with Fireline anymore, because I've heard nightmare stories of how the Fireline can cut itself when knotted).  Your peyote will be beautifully even and you can start with the colors as they appear on your graph!

I can understand both your excitement and your trepidation!  Another thing...you could keep your starter strip and reuse it to make smaller, more manageable strips of peyote, and ultimately "zip" them together to form the whole project.  Smiley

If you plan to use this as a wall hanging, is it something you could perhaps frame, where the frame is taking most of the weight of the beads and not the threads?  Also, perhaps you'd want to use a thicker, sturdier Fireline, maybe an 8 or even 10 pound test.  I know it's really hard to weave in all of those thread ends, but with something so large, it might be something to think about.

HTH!  Please do keep in touch about your progress!  Smiley

Melanie  (known to the cat as "Rowr" or "Rowr Rowr") =^.^=


Melanie  (cat slave and Official Feline Can Opener) =^.^=
~~~~~
I'm a beading, knitting and crochet addict.  If that means I'm admitting I have a problem, then I admit to nothing. Please refrain from helping me.


 
Member since:
Jul 14, 2011
Posts: 20
stitchngirl message #5
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 13, 2011 at 4:29:00 PM
 
Hi Melanie
Thanks for all your info.
I'm going to frame it - thinking of the frames you can purchase to hold stain glass - it has a groove all the way around - so I would put glass bead project glass and slide it into the grooves - I would think that would support it because it would be a sandwich and totally protected - I like the idea of you can see it on either side to.

So in saying that Fireline what weight would you go with. 6 lb. or 8 lb. or 10 lb.

this project is 188 beads wide x 604 rows in height - BIG PROJECT

I'm on a mission and I will accomplish it - I think I will start in the New Year - so one can think and concentrate - starting before Christmas not a good plan - to much happening etc.

Kathy


 
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Stitchboard Admin message #6
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 14, 2011 at 3:58:26 AM
 
Kathy,

Excellent questions!  Smiley

I haven't seen those frames, so I'm unable to opine on how supportive they would be...the main thing I would be absolutely SURE of is that the whole project won't be hanging from the top rows of beads, basically, because that would be where trouble would occur, in the form of thread breakage.  If you're satisfied that it's NOT putting undue weight on the top rows of beads, undue weight on the THREADS in those rows in particular, then you're probably pretty safe.  But I would be absolutely CERTAIN about it, because if there IS a lot of stress on the top rows of beads, all of your hard work will have been for nothing.  Sad  Literally, you'll be hanging heavy, heavy GLASS on thread.  To put it another way, if it were a pane of glass with a thread that was somehow threaded or embedded into the top of it, would the frame have your pane of glass hanging from the thread, or otherwise supported?  Unfortunately, if it's a frame for stained glass, you can't really go by how the frame will work similarly for beads, because stained glass is far more sturdy and can take more weight than thread.  You can also "rest" the bottom of a piece of stained glass against the bottom of a frame.  If you tried that with beads, your beadwork would bunch up and not lie flat.

Another alternative...have you considered square stitch (if possible), rather than peyote?

Square stitch is a royal pain and takes a long time, too, perhaps longer than peyote, but it has the added advantage that your threads can break and you'd have less damage.  When I first started beading, I taught people square stitch, and the last thing I'd do as part of the lesson was to CUT APART the work I'd just done.  It was so everyone could see how secure this stitch was, that even cut with sharp scissors, it didn't easily come apart.  After every demonstration I also had to pick the threads out of EVERY bead, and it was very painstaking.

I'm not trying to convince you to change stitches, and it may be a moot point, anyway, but I'm trying to let you know of an alternative.  Smiley

I would go with the heaviest weight of Fireline that you feel you can manage and still comfortably be able to do your beadwork.  The biggest problem with the heavier weights is your thread ends still have to be worked back, and when you get a lot of thread passes in your work, while it makes it more stable, it also can keep you from pulling your thread through in spots.  You may end up with some beads that are so filled with thread, you won't be able to pull ONE more thread through.  (Ugh, been there, done that.)  You then run a very great risk of breaking a bead.  If a tight spot does occur, don't force your needle, because then chances are you'll be sorry.

Oh, yes, it's definitely a great idea to wait on this until you're not encumbered by holiday plans!  Especially if you're making special gifts for those you love...if that were me, I'd definitely want to give it my full, undivided attention!

Anyway, please don't take the above as me trying to scare you!  I'm merely trying to mention the areas where you should be cautious, because after all of that work, it would be a shame to have a problem such as thread breakage.  Especially with something that's longer rather than wide...meaning more potential stress on your top threads.

I hope you'll be posting photos of your work in progress!  Smiley

Melanie  (known to the cat as "Rowr" or "Rowr Rowr") =^.^=


Melanie  (cat slave and Official Feline Can Opener) =^.^=
~~~~~
I'm a beading, knitting and crochet addict.  If that means I'm admitting I have a problem, then I admit to nothing. Please refrain from helping me.


 
Member since:
Jul 14, 2011
Posts: 20
stitchngirl message #7
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 14, 2011 at 12:04:36 PM
 
Hi Melanie
below is the website for the stain glass frame - see the groove all the way around - my plan was to put glass then the bead project and then glass again - sandwich to hold it all in place and the groove would support the whole thing all the way around - What do you think?  So what do you think I should use for kind of thread and weight of thread once you have seen the frame i'm talking about.

http://www.framesbymail.com/Wood/For_Stain_Glass

Thanks so much for giving me all aspects to think about and be aware of - very good to learn from ladies like you. My head is spinning - but I certainly want to be prepared and focused and set up properly etc.

I so totally get what you  mean the weight of the beads - can't have stress on top rows at all. 

I have my heart set on the peyote stitch for this project.

Have you  done a large project doing the peyote? just curious.

posting pics of progress - sure have to figure that out to. LOL!
Kathy


 
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Stitchboard Admin message #8
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 15, 2011 at 12:53:11 AM
 
Kathy,

Sorry it's taken so long for me to reply...I wanted to be sure my answer was correct!

I don't yet have an answer, but still wanted to get back to you in a timely fashion.  Smiley  I have a contact in the framing business, so I'm in the process of trying to get in touch with her to get a professional opinion.  Smiley

I'm glad my comments didn't scare you off, as they weren't meant to!  I just hate to think of all of that work you will have done being for nothing if the thread breaks.  Stuff happens, sure, and you can't be prepared EVERY time, but if you can think ahead, you can avoid certain problems.  Smiley

Yes, bead thread really has to do a lot of work, especially in a very large project.  If it happens to "sit" that way, the top rows will take the majority, the rows a bit farther down will take some, and the bottom will have the least weight of all.  The goal would be to ensure NONE of the thread takes on extra weight.

I completely understand about being focused on using peyote!  It's definitely a fun stitch, IMO.  Smiley

I haven't done anything that large, no!  My favorite thing is sculptural beadwork...I also like amulet bags and jewelry, of course!  Smiley  I have some ideas of 3D things I'd like to design, as well.  Smiley  LOL, so nothing really big.

As for posting your pics, if our "new" software isn't in place, I'll be glad to help you personally so you can get this accomplished.  Smiley  But hopefully the new software will be running by then.  Also, if you'd like, you could blog about your work...IMO, it's unusual enough to work on something SO large, people would be very interested in reading about your experiences!  (The blog software is also slated to be rewritten.)

Anyway, just some thoughts.  Actually, I've been to Bead & Button a couple of times and was amazed at how incredible some of the work there was, and when it came to the large, large pieces in the showcase, I've wished I could see the work in progress...it sounds fascinating!  Smiley

Melanie  (known to the cat as "Rowr" or "Rowr Rowr") =^.^=


Melanie  (cat slave and Official Feline Can Opener) =^.^=
~~~~~
I'm a beading, knitting and crochet addict.  If that means I'm admitting I have a problem, then I admit to nothing. Please refrain from helping me.


 
Member since:
Jul 14, 2011
Posts: 20
stitchngirl message #9
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 15, 2011 at 8:29:26 AM
 

Hi Melanie
I look forward to what your contact in the framing business has to say about that frame for holding/supporting the peyote large project.

I found in my researching the video below and thought hey that just might be a good thing to do with it being such a large project. Take a look and let me know what you think. starter strip beaded ruler.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/18017843

later
Kathy


 
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Stitchboard Admin message #10
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 15, 2011 at 6:38:35 PM
 
Kathy,

Okay, I spoke at great length with my friend, who actually had to shut down her business because of the economy, but she had a LOT of great advice.

She doesn't recommend going with the stained glass frame.  At 18x20, that's quite a large project and with a "sandwich" of glass, glass, and glass, that's going to be REALLY heavy.

In addition, she said that even sandwiched between glass, there's no way to keep the beadwork from slipping down in the frame.

Her suggestion was this: have it professionally framed.  Yes, it's expensive, but this is a project that you're not going to want to see messed up!  Fast Frame is the kind of framing place she suggests (that's a national franchise if you're here in the US), rather than a fabric or craft store's service.  When describing what she would do, she mentioned "tacking" the beadwork down in MANY places on a foam board in a way that makes it removable, but keeps the major weight off of the top rows of beads.  The reason she suggests having it professionally framed in particular is because if there's a problem with the framing, you can bring it back and they'd fix it at no charge, rather than you having to keep fixing and fixing it!

I've framed cross stitched items myself, but never bead-woven ones, and if I were doing this project, yes, I'd scream and cry and complain about the cost...but would still bring it in to be professionally framed.  Again, after all of that work, I'm guessing you really don't want to trust it to anything less!

What a great video...thanks for the link!  Smiley  For an 18" wide piece, you'd have to start with an 18" ruler or strip of wood.  It would be more of a personal preference.  For me, the rigidness of the wood supporting the strip for such a large project would likely make it unwieldy and difficult to work with the beads, as there would be no "give."  A smaller starter strip for a smaller project would be less awkward, IMO.

Hope that helps!  I'm sorry the answer probably isn't something you really wanted to do...I wouldn't want to do it, either...but my friend has years of experience in framing and really knows her stuff, so I would definitely heed her advice.

Melanie  (known to the cat as "Rowr" or "Rowr Rowr") =^.^=


Melanie  (cat slave and Official Feline Can Opener) =^.^=
~~~~~
I'm a beading, knitting and crochet addict.  If that means I'm admitting I have a problem, then I admit to nothing. Please refrain from helping me.


 
Member since:
Jul 14, 2011
Posts: 20
stitchngirl message #11
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 16, 2011 at 5:03:20 PM
 
Hi Melanie
Thanks for the information.  Good points all the way around.  I must share with you I owned/operated a Cross Stitch and Framing shop specializing in framing needleart 10 years ago.

I investigate and research knowledgable ladies like yourself big time before I embark on a project - of course once I actually get beading I will have a far better idea for sure on finding my way with peyote being 18" wide. LOL!

I live in Alberta, Canada and I would do research of Frame shops to find one that has extensive experience in framing beaded projects and cross stitch pieces.  I always interview Frame shops at length of how they stretch Cross Stitch pieces, I get them to tell me exactly what they do from beginning to end and would do so with beaded pieces as well.  It so totally amazes me alot of Frame shops have no idea of how to stretch needleart of any sort - let alone framing the pieces conservation - they are heirlooms.

A few questions to Your friend with the many years of framing experience - to tack it down in many many many places on a foamboard - I got a question with your knowledge of peyote beading  - i'm thinking it would be tricky to tack it down inbetween the beads but I so get the whole concept of what she is saying for sure to keep the weight off the top rows of beads - its make perfect sense - I get that.  What would she suggest using for the type of thread to do this and it would have to be on a beading needle in order to get it between the beads?  Also tacking it down all over it would be over the threads that are inbetween the beads correct? Another question for your friend: What kind of frame would she use to frame the piece.  When I got this project charted she put 4 rows of border beads on top and bottom and 6 rows for the right side and left side - for the purpose of framing in that stained glass frame - as the bead of border rows would be hidden inside the slot in the frame.  Does she have some words of advise on that please.  Is she thinking of this beaded project with mats? if so how many or what ideas would she have?

Melanie - I have no problem whatsoever to get a professional Frame Shop with extensive experience of doing beaded pieces/cross stitch pieces at whatever the cost would be.  And knowing me I will more than likely be framing this masterpiece myself. LOL! Just got get supplies and all the right stuff and a way I go.  I have never framed a solid peyote beaded project - new learning curve.

I'm very thankful for your willingness and helpfulness and going above and beyond with your knowledge and researching with your friends/professionals to help me in this adventure i'm going to embark on.

you can certainly email me privately: stitchngirl at yahoo dot com

Are we having fun yet!  Thanks Melanie -  I'm the same way - passing and sharing knowledge - take it for what its worth to all.

Look forward to hearing from you
Seasons Greetings
Kathy


 
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Stitchboard Admin message #12
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 17, 2011 at 1:08:17 AM
 
Kathy,

Wow, so you know all about framing, then...that's fantastic!  Smiley

LOL, I suspect you'll find your own tricks to working with something SO large...and undoubtedly you'll have great fun experimenting!  You may want to write down anything you do figure out, in order to share it with other people who might embark on beading such a large object.  Smiley

You're so right...needleart pieces really ARE heirlooms!  After all, if you think of pieces that have been handed down through the ages...those are yesterday's heirlooms just as much as the pieces people make today are tomorrow's.

It's a FANTASTIC idea to interview framers.  You're very right...most do not know how to handle needlework of ANY kind.  It's very disappointing.  To see someone's beautifully accomplished work with (shudder) MASKING TAPE used to stretch it out and other hideous abominations like that is SO awful.

I'll see if my friend has any thoughts on thread and frames.  Smiley  I don't speak to her often, as she's quite busy, but hopefully I'll be lucky and get to speak to her again soon!  (It's always nice to have an excuse to speak with her, too.  LOL, just don't try to catch her when she's running around!)

Well, I have to say, I GREATLY admire you in perhaps trying the framing yourself!  LOL, I wouldn't have the courage.  Grin

I'm having fun just thinking of the possibilities!  Smiley  It's kind of nice to live vicariously through your beading, rather than having to actually try it myself.  Grin

Oh, yes, knowledge is always best shared.  Smiley  And IMO, it's always nice to learn new things!

Happy Holidays!  Smiley
Melanie  (known to the cat as "Rowr" or "Rowr Rowr") =^.^=


Melanie  (cat slave and Official Feline Can Opener) =^.^=
~~~~~
I'm a beading, knitting and crochet addict.  If that means I'm admitting I have a problem, then I admit to nothing. Please refrain from helping me.


 
Member since:
Jul 14, 2011
Posts: 20
stitchngirl message #13
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 20, 2011 at 2:08:22 PM
 
Hi Melanie
Look forward to what your framing friend has for how to frame it and thoughts on what kind of frame and all that.
What are your thoughts with the tacking it down all over the foamboard using what thread? and how to secure it - the thread between the beads???
Yes I will do a diary for heirloom documentation purposes of the big peyote journey.  I was just so hoping that someone had done a very large project with peyote to give me there journey of everything. LOL!
Merry Christmas
Kathy


 
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Stitchboard Admin message #14
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 21, 2011 at 12:58:51 AM
 
Kathy,

I haven't been able to reach my friend yet, I'm sorry to say, but this doesn't surprise me, being so close to the holidays.

I personally would choose a very strong thread...but NOT Fireline.  I've heard Fireline, when knotted, can cut itself!  I'd also be cautious that whatever it is can stand up to Fireline and not get cut by it.  I don't know enough about, for instance, cotton threads, to say if that would be a good idea to use them.  In a VERY unofficial capacity, I can say that I was told cotton quilting (hand quilting, IIRC) thread was best for framing cross stitch, but my GUESS is it might not stand up to the Fireline.

I think that's a fantastic idea to write about what you're doing!  It's unique...you're a trailblazer!  I know it's a lot easier to go with what someone else has done, but I do think there's something really fantastic about doing what no one else has yet accomplished!

Melanie  (known to the cat as "Rowr" or "Rowr Rowr") =^.^=


Melanie  (cat slave and Official Feline Can Opener) =^.^=
~~~~~
I'm a beading, knitting and crochet addict.  If that means I'm admitting I have a problem, then I admit to nothing. Please refrain from helping me.


 
Member since:
Jul 14, 2011
Posts: 20
stitchngirl message #15
Re: Going to do a big project in peyote
December 21, 2011 at 9:34:15 AM
 
Hi Mel
Thanks for the vote of confidence on doing this huge peyote project. It will be an interesting adventure to say the least.  I can't believe no one has never done a big peyote project - that makes me wonder if i'm crazy to do this or not. LOL!
Merry Christmas
Kathy

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